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vhawkins1952

Melungeons ARE Mixed Catawban -- NOT Mixed Gypsy!

Updated: Aug 5, 2021

I have been fighting itiotic nonsence about the origins of the people referred to by Will Alan Drumgoole, living ot the Virginia/Tennessee border as "Melungeons" for decades. I will continue to do so as long as I breathe.

One Person’s Response

Maybe some Melungeons were mixed-Gypsy. But to claim we ALL were is a step beyond the pale.

There was one person who hated my ideas and was determined to let me know. I am an old man and I go to bed early. One reason I have done all the research I have been doing was to prove all those nonsensical ideas about the Melungeons being descended from Gypsies, or Portuguese, or that the Cherokees are Jews -- was just wrong! There are SO many reasons. There is the concept of “Occam’s Razor” which I will get into later. There are historical records. There is the combination of simple math with genealogy, DNA testing, and the use of our logical minds, as well.

Well, let me get started again. I went to bed early. I woke up the next morning, took a showed, ate, then looked at my computer messages from yesterday, like I always do. We commented a little, I got off the computer and went on with my day. I noticed xyz had made more comments, but I didn’t read them. I decided to look at them later, when I wouldn’t be interrupted, so I’d have time to look at them thoughtfully, so I could make more thoughtful responses. I woke up and saw this person had posted several comments, one after another, trying to disprove everything I stood for. I only read the first one and responded to it in part. I wasn’t even finished with that. When this person posted back. Should I respond to that post, or finish responding to xyz’s first (the first of several) post? Well, I posted, then xyz did . . . this went on for the better part of an hour. Finally -- I blocked xyz. Why was xyz bullying me, and not giving me a chance to collect my thoughts rationally and thoughtfully? Now I am going to respond to all xyz comments, knowing xyz CAN’T interrupt my thought processes, because I blocked xyz. I refuse to embarrass xyz by naming xyz– that’s not my style. Here goes.


<We’d just made friends on facebook>


Sun 12:00 PM

You sent July 25 at 12:00 PM

I'd like to send and receive messages, if that'd be okay?


Sun 4:57 PM

xyz

xyz sent July 25 at 4:57 PM

Would love to hear from you!


Mon 6:30 AM

I sent July 26 at 6:30 AM

Howdy. So do you have Richard Haithcock's book? I believe he passed away a few years ago. Sorry to hear. He had contacted me and invited me to go to Ohio, but I don't know what to do with my dogs, if I ever travel, next thing I heard he'd passed away.


I sent July 26 at 6:34 AM

Have you read Dr. Carlson's PhD thesis? Both he and Richard wrote a lot about Ky and Ohio. There are others in/around Wayne County, Ky claiming Cherokee blood -- but the Blevins surname is found amongst them. They Blevins can trace ancestry back to Ned Sizemore, which has been shown to be a Catawba surname, not Cherokee. I bet all those folks are Catawba, NOT Cherokee.

[Vance's note]

I’d been led to believe xyz was a researcher of the Catawba and Associated Bands. Richard Haithcock was a leader of a people called “Carmel Indians” out of Ohio. They are a group of mixed blood families who were Saponi. They came from the same place my ancestors did – the Va/Tn border by 1800 and Fort Christanna on the Va/NC border by about 1715. I just assumed xyz knew about our history. I began to realize xyz had no idea about this historical migration. Dr. Richard Carlson researched our history, and wrote a peer reviewed PhD Thesis about us.


xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 7:14 AM

Hmm....well, this is the thing, assimilations happened. We can (Redbones & Melungeons) lay claim to many dozens of early Va. tribes and other MB families. We are mixed bloods from very early colonial Va. and migrated throughout the colonies and into the territories. I agree there was an identity circa early to mid 1700s to the Catawba but the Catawba were also a mixed tribal people already of Va Indian (Tidewater). And, on the Sizemore's male YDNA are by origins a South American Indian who was back migrated to the colonies through the Portuguese and/or Spanish Wear Indies slave trade. We have FB Cherokee exact mtdna matches (living) between the Melungeons/Redbones/Lumbee/MOWA to ancient Persian Khalder Gypsy (India)

They removed out west. We have Sizemore's who were among the Fort Briger, Wyoming settlement and who are modern day Nez Perce. I have one female MtDNA in Texas who returned as a Zuni Pueblo among the Laguna's. It's all so fascinating. The Kentucky matches we have are on the MtDNA above Khalder Gypsy (Maggofin) Ky to Indiana. The YDNA is from the BLAIR and Perkins matched ydna, they are certainly white origins but whole are also among the modern day Caramel Indians who settled in Michigan, again the migration path of the Grasshoppper's. They had a particular migration path in the form of a triangle shape which is why they are called Grasshopper's they claim Cherokee Gypsy. I have heard of the Blevins I have one in my database who married a Martin Louis Goins son of Relus Marcus & Eliza Jane Ball Goins Madison Co., KY. and died Indiana~ We have the surname Ball among us also. This male YDNA lineage matched Jack Goins, of the Vardy Valley Melungeons.This female lineage includes Mary Muscgrove Empress of the Creek Nation. We have exact YDNA match to Oceola, the great Seminole Reistence Leader. He is a direct line from Queen Coutifique and her run away Portuguese Slave, Guiramac. There is a Sizemore among our earliest settlements into Mississippi Territories, and what is present day Alabama. We are also by autosomal cousins with Dragging Canoe and the Red Sticks (Creek). Our Perkins settled the Cheraws and first to cross the Catawba River. We are sure we have Catawba among us. My grandfather NASH was a "black trader among the Catawba-Cherokee & Nottoway, he was a Moore of Delaware (Berber). We have Seminole among us as well as the Pakana Muscogee & Tutelo from Florida to Tensas to Louisiana. We are living current day Chickasaw and Choctaw members...sooooooo, as far as one tribal identity..NO, we don't have one, we have many but suffice to say, the culture among our families historically surrounded the MB Native tribal peoples. As far as the Caramel Indians of Ohio, they are in general Grasshopper Gypsies, the descendants of a converted RW soldier, Ben Ishmael and a Native American wife (suspected Corn Silk's people).

[Vance's note: Little of the above is relevant to what I am trying to report. She said above "I have one female MtDNA in Texas who returned as a Zuni Pueblo among the Laguna's. It's all so fascinating." What on earth is she talking about? Pueblo of Zuni (ashiwi.org) ? It sounds like she is saying she knows of one person whose mtDNA results came back saying she was Zuni, or perhaps Laguna Pueblo. Both the Zuni and Laguna are people are considered the same Pueblo peoples. I wanted to stop her and ask her questions, but she went on, writing and writing. I am writing this August 5th, responding to her writings of late July! She gave me no time keep up with her. I could respond to half a dozen other things she wrote. She mentions the queen of a Muscogeean city who ran off with a Purtuguese slave. I suspect she is referring to the later half of the 16th century. She calls Mary Musgrave a Creek Empress. But why is this relevant? Mary Musgrove - Wikipedia . I would have asked her about Mary, as well. But no time, she was off again with more unverifiable "history." She speaks of a Sizemore family in Alabama, but neglects to say whether this person was Catawba or not. The majority of persons surnamed "Sizemore" are likely Caucasian. She speaks of some related through DNA to Dragging Canoe and "the Red Sticks", as if they were allies! First, Dragging Canoe died in 1792 Dragging Canoe - Wikipedia -- and the people known as "Red Sticks" were led by Chief Red Eagle, also known as William Weatherford. He died in 1824. After the Red Stick War, he just walked into the camp of his enemy, Andrew Jackson and surrendered, expecting to be killed. . This surprized Jackson, and his bravery so surprized Jackson, that he spared Weatherford's life. His life is very interesting -- "Red Eagle" by George Cary Eggleston is part of my personal library and I greatly enjoyed reading it. His story is a fascinating one. He should be as well known as Tecumseh as the two were great allies. But he died in 1824. But there is no way to know if someone's DNA shows they are related to Dragging Canoe. We don't know what his DNA looked like! We also don't hold any copies of the DNA of the Red Sticks, most of whom died between 1812 and 1814. I had so many questions, because most of what she said made no sense. Then she brought up some guy she called an "ancient Persian Khalder Gypsy (India)". Again -- what on earth is she talking about? Why didn't she make any attempt to explain any of this! She wrote one piece of unexplained nonsense after another. I take pride in citing my sources. Now it has taken me hours to try to verify her comments. Didn't others ask her to verify what she was saying? Oh, one more thing. She seems to imply people with the Moore surname have a "Moorish" ancestry!]

.xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 7:21 AM

So, we got a lot going on in our ancestry. Tell me about your male Hawkins lineage. We have some Hawkins among us in TN. Hawkins and Sevier, both Governers of TN and where our Over Hill Cherokee comes in after the RW.


xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 7:23 AM

I published two books on the Catawba for Judy Martin (Morman). https://amzn.to/378macd

Amazon.com : Judy Martin Catawba

amazon.com

[Vance's note: Here I am wanting to has her dozens of questions and she is asking me other questions about MY ancestry. I DON'T WANT her to know anything about my ancestry until Ihave made sure that she is legit. But stupid me, I start to tell her.]


Mon 9:45 AM

I sent July 26 at 9:45 AM

My earliest known Hawkins was Joshua Hawkins, b. 1834, in Cherokee County, Alabama. On 1880 Texas census he said his parents were born in Alabama. Dad was A. O. Hawkins, b. 1915, Ok- d. 1992, Ok. His father was Noah Allen Hawkins, 1877-1957, b. Tx d. Az. He and grandma split up during the Dust Bowl. He and grandma married in 1904 in the Chickasaw Nation, near the small town of Loco. Grandma was born there in the early 1880s. Grandpa Hawkins (I never met him) died in 1957 in Pinal County, Arizona and I was born in Okmulgee, Ok in 1952, Noah's father was Joshua Hawkins, and he was the one born in Cherokee County, Al., which lies on the Cherokee/Creek border.


I sent July 26 at 9:47 AM

You mentioned "Cornsilk"? Was that the same as "Cornstalk"? I am thinking he was Shawnee? I am trying to remember from 20 years ago . . .


Mon 10:04 AM

I sent July 26 at 10:04 AM

We have looked for Joshua Hawkins' parents -- yet have never found them. He would have been about 4 or 5 years old at the time of the Trail of Tears. There were a lot of intruders in the Cherokee and Creek Nations at the time. My autosomal DNA test says I am mostly Caucasian, but I have Native and African DNA as well.


I sent July 26 at 10:13 AM

I have native DNA that is Siberian, Arctic, North, Meso, and South American all. Only a larger sample size can improve on that testing. Also Iberian DNA is Celtic, Visigothic, Roman, and Moorish. Melungeon DNA would be expected to be African and English and American Indian. However most genetic testing sees mixtures of <5% as just statistical noise and the ignore it. People from the Britich Isles are ALSO Germanic (Anglo-Saxon), perhaps mixed with Celtic and Roman. Melungeons often have African -- the Moors were from MORocco and MAURitania. Since there are a LOT OF Iberian peoples and just a handful of Melungeons, it is easy to see why/how they get us mixed up with them, as our DNA should look a lot like theirs.


My response to this entire line of questioning written Wed morning @ 0430, 28Ju2021.

When I read, “Hmm....well, this is the thing, assimilations happened. We can (Redbones & Melungeons) lay claim to many dozens of early Va. tribes and other MB families. We are mixed bloods from very early colonial Va. and migrated throughout the colonies and into the territories. I agree there was an identity circa early to mid 1700s to the Catawba but the Catawba were also a mixed tribal people already of Va Indian (Tidewater). – I KNEW xyz was just spouting things that seemed “logical” to xyz. I was thinking, “Oh my God! What did I get myself into? Xyz doesn’t know any history at all! What is an MB family? Xyz speaks of “dozens” of Virginia Tribes. What xyz calls “tribes” were often different bands of the same people, loosely confederated and allied to others that spoke similar languages. But often there were bitter enemies and rivalries and sadistic wars xyz just lumps us altogether.

Xyz says, “Catawba but the Catawba were also a mixed tribal people already of Va Indian (Tidewater).”

What is xyz talking about? A hundred years before the Spanish and English showed up on our shores, or a thousand, the tribes “mixed”. There were also Englishmen with French wives, and Spaniards with Moorish wives, and Greeks with Italian wives, and on and on . . . so what? I don’t understand what is so odd about this.

I wanted to put it all aside and explain all this later at this time. I went from wondering if xyz had read Dr. Carlson’s wonderful PhD thesis to realizing xyz hadn’t. He traces the Saponi families from Ft. Christanna to the Va/Tn border, and then the families to Magoffin County, Ky and then Ohio. Xyz is aware of none of this. I saw that xyz kept commenting after I left, but I was going to read it after I did some chores – mowing and chopping weeds, laundry – I am elderly and living on a social security check that our wonderful Republicans call getting something for nothing, even though I paid into FICA for 50 years, with every paycheck I ever earned.

Xyz says Sizemore’s the are South American Indian. But so many North American tribes are extinct or on the verge of extinction. We have a very small sample size of Catawban DNA to choose from. My autosomal DNA says I have Artic, North, Meso and South American DNA here and there, as well as Siberian! But not much – I am mostly Caucasian. I also have African and some that appears to be Asia Indian. I’ll discuss this later, since xyz makes a big deal of this. But NONE OF THIS is revealed in my Y-chromosome or mtDNA – it only appears in my Autosomal DNA.


What XYZ Wrote While I Was Away

Mon 3:52 PM

xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 3:52 PM

Oh I do not use autosomal admixture for any of the above info. We only use Mt and YDNA. You should test your YDNA and see if you can match up with any other male Hawkins lineages. Yeah, Melungeons are far from the average, African, White and NA..far from it, and as we delve into the Y and Mt we are finding most exotic origins of our foreparents.


Mon 4:08 PM

xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 4:08 PM

As far as the mainline Catawba, there is a high result origins in the middle east. Dr. Brent Kennedy, the Messaih to the Melungeons returned mostly Middle Eastern and European (autosomal admixtures) and because there is no difference between NA tribal DNA it is impossible to extrapolate a "tribe" by DNA. As well, there is no way for us (I am a genetic genealogist) distinguish between Asian NA and American NA. The only group indeginous NA who do not match the Asian NA even through the maternal lines is a few small pockets of NA in South America who are Australasian in origins (anciently) and several of our participants including myself match heavily to those South American NA's. They are called population Y. Okay, so, yes, excuse me I did mean Cornstalk. My problem is, the myopic view of many of our participants and the romanticized NA connections. We have 4 male surname lines who were NA in origins, Hall, Sizemore, Bales and Shoemake. Females are more but cover a wide range of surnames. So, we are a result directly of the definition of colonialism.

xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 4:17 PM

Here is the Hawkins male YDNA results thus far. Lots of Hawkins have tested. A hotbed of Melungeon families was Hawkins Co., Tn. which was named for Gov. Hawkins who also signed a passport for several of our families to cross the Creek Nation to migrate from Tn to La. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HAWKINS?iframe=yresults

FamilyTreeDNA - HAWKINS Worldwide Genealogy DNA Project

familytreedna.com


xyz

xyz sent July 26 at 4:27 PM

You can join our MEHRA DNA study group here to see the results of our participants https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mehra-project/about/background

XMA Header Image

FamilyTreeDNA - Genetic Testing for Ancestry, Family History & Genealogy

familytreedna.com

[vances note: she started telling me people with Catawban DNA were from the Middle East. She told me nonsense or things I have known for 20 years, as though it should be a revelation to me. I had decided I wanted nothing further to do with her. ]


My Response

xyz never gave me a chance even to read most of the above, as xyz started punching again while I was just trying to read it for the first time. I finally had to block xyz just so xyz’d SHUT UP and let me read it.


xyz said xyz didn’t use autosomal DNA – but xyz was using autosomal DNA results to make the claims xyz did. Xyz kept asking me about my Hawkins line. We are in group #3 on FtDNA of the Hawkins’. I was one of the first to use their services.


Xyz says xyz is finding “exotic” fore-parents on most Melungeon straight male and straight female lines (Y-chromosome and mtDNA, respectively). I have had both tested. My male Hawkins line goes back, they say, to Kent, England, the southeastern corner of England. The Hawkins surname couldn’t get any more English that that! 😊 And my mtDNA is of Germanic origin.


Oh my GOD!! Xyz calls Dr. Brent Kennedy the Messiah of Melungeon research! I never read a thing he says, but that’s because reports of what he said were the most ridiculous nonsense – I saw no point!


xyz admits to confusing “Cornsilk” and “Cornstalk” and blames it on some people who are proud of having Native heritage. I don’t know what that means . . .


xyz says there are a lot of Melungeon families in Hawkins County, Tn. my reply – well YEAH! They are all Saponi, like me! Xyz really should read Dr. Carlson’s peer reviewed PhD Thesis! It shows the migration – there is no mystery. There wasn’t just Ft. Christanna – then assimilation happened – presto – we are now Gypsies! THAT NEVER HAPPENED!! Maybe it happened to HER! But xyz can’t tell me it did to MY family.


Then xyz starts discussing MY Hawkins family. Xyz gave me a link that I was one of the founding members off on ftDNA. I remember I asked the same question over and over once, with no responses, and after a few months I just left that group. But this ws all over 20 years ago.


My early response and xyz’s many responses

Okay, I think that’s what I would have said, had xyz ever given me a chance. FINALLY! It’s good to get that said. Here is what I actually said. Remember I only read one of xyz’s comments above – only a few minutes ago have I had a chance to read the rest.


Early in the morning I woke up fresh, and thought I’d have time to look at xyz’s messages for the first time, and give responses. Unfortunately, xyz probably never went to sleep, and ambushed me before I had a chance to even finish reading xyz’s posts from yesterday. Xyz’s ambush was relentless and the only way I could shut xyz up was to block xyz. I was intending to answer xyz EVERY statement, and I had to do that one post at a time. They after reading what xyz said, I wanted to look up all the sources to what xyz was saying – but xyz provided NOTHING! I HATE it when someone spews out a mouthful of words, yet provides NO references or sources to back up those words.


Tue 2:55 AM

I sent Yesterday at 2:55 AM

What? Y-DNA tells us only about our Hawkins ancestors -- Hawkins is an Anglo-Saxon surname, and I tested my y-chromosome DNA 20 years ago. I was one or the first 10 or 20 “Hawkins’”to be tested by FtDNA. We match their group 3 DNA and it goes back to Kent in SE England. But that tells us NOTHING about my Melungeon DNA.


I sent Yesterday at 3:00 AM

My Wayland and Gibson families attended the Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church, the church where the word "malungin" is first recorded as having been useIin 1813. Early on Nevil Wayland Jr was church Clerk, but by 1813 that cleek was surnamed "Brickey", a second generation French Huguenot


I sent Yesterday at 3:07 AM

Go here to see the French origin of the word.. If you conjugate the French verb, "melanger", present tense, and look at first person, plural, "we mix" in French is "nous melangeons". In spoken French the "we" which is necessary in English, is understood, as is the came in most Romance languages.


I sent Yesterday at 3:09 AM

https://conjugator.reverso.net/conjugation-french-verb-m%C3%A9langer.html


XMA Header Image

Conjugation mélanger | Conjugate verb mélanger French | Reverso Conjugator

conjugator.reverso.net


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:09 AM

Yes, ydna tells only about the father to son or surname progebitor male. That can tell you a lot by wgo you matched. Ill check out the results to see what group3 is/matches. Redbones are older than stoney creek mention of Melungeon. The first mention of Redbones was 1690s. The Gypsy Khalder marker matches mentioned above to the Melungeons/Lymbee/Redbones and living Cherokee was mtdna direct line from Spanish Peg Gibson Collins. 😊


I sent Yesterday at 3:11 AM

I wish you'd let me finish -- I have a lot more to say. Then tell me the source -- I have those minutes from the Stoney Creek church. Show me the reference where there is a written source where the term "melungeons" is used.


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:12 AM

We believe Melungeon was an Arabic word meaning "cursed or outcast". Simply because most of us return with high ME origin haplos:-)


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:22 AM

Im not trying to cut you off, you sent the message and I assumed you were finished. Biologically and historically Redbones are the progenitor's of the people known as Melungeon. Mr Hawkins, you have some preconceived notions about our people which are draconian and incorrect. I also have a copy of the Stoney Creek notes and the mention of the word is 10 plus years after the term Redbone (Chickasaw Redbones up around Muscle Shoals south of Granger Co) at Fort Rosalie later known as Fort Natchez.


I sent Yesterday at 3:25 AM

I have only read one of your comments from yesterday. Let me read the rest of it. And Melungeons is a French word, NOT Arabic. Of course there are Spanish and Portuguese words that have a similar meaning! All originate from Latin! But only French Melungeons lived near where the Saponi lived in 1813! The Tuscarora ALSO say French Huguenots lived with them. Have you heard of "Occam's Rasor"? I take it you never read Richard Hathcock's book, nor Dr. Richard Carlson's peer reviewed PhD thesis. They both explain the origin of the mixed-race Saponi families found from the Va/NC border, through sw Va/neTn, to E Ky, and on to the Carmel (not caramel) Indians of Ohio. They can be traced straight from Ft. Christanna on to ne Tn. I don't have time -- I have fought these stories for thirty years, and wonder why some people don't get it after all this time. I am researching MY family which were those Saponi families from Sw Va and NE Tn -- ONLY! -- If your families aren't Saponi, I am not talking about YOU! You are talking about mixed-race families -- that is the origin of the word -- I am talking only about those mixed-race families found on the Va/Tn border who came from Ft. Christanna.

I sent Yesterday at 3:36 AM

Again, please provide a link where your Chickasaw reference is used! What is the source? My great grandparents LIVED in the Chickasaw Nation in Oklahoma. I have relatives who leased lands from Benton Colbert, a well known Chickasaw chief of the later half of the 19th century. Memphis Tn was formerly known as "Chickasaw Bluffs". The French controlled the Mississippi River. Of course they might have used the word. Just show the the reference and I'll be happy. Even if it is written in French. I have an uncle buried in the American Cemetery in Normandy, and some French people contacted me about him. They can translate material for me.


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:46 AM

Mr. Hawkins, everything I say to you is cited properly in various publishing that we have through Backintyme.biz (amazon/kindle/B&N) from various authors. Do you have a gedmatch number, I wasn't sure if you had autosomal tested, or not?


I sent Yesterday at 3:49 AM

And NO my ideas are not preconcieved -- YOURS ARE! I have spend DECADES researching these things -- I am an old man. The misinformation of our origins started with Will Allen Drumgoole’s nonsense -- she lied about us -- and we have to fight those lies CONSTANTLY -- every time I think I have overcome them, someone comes out with something new. I better stop now -- suffice it to say you are WAY off base. I just wish you people would quit spreading lies about my family. Autosomal DNA is the ONLY DNA that will pick up Native DNA, I have written extensively about those flaws in the Melungeon studies -- principly the use only of mtDNA and y-chromosomal DNA. say you have 32 g-g-g-reandparents. You learn only of 2 of those 32 individules -- and you learn NOTHING of the other 30! I'm sorry -- but this is a deal breaker -- you are probably one of those people I have been fighting with my every breath for 30 or 40 years! Yo go your way, and I'll go mine.


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:50 AM

A good place to start is, Redbones of Louisiana by Don C. Marler, then their is a book called Carolina Genesis which I have along with abc and other authors share my research into the Naychez Trace, Mississippi Territorial Papers and early Louisiana (upper and lower). Chief Redbone was born at Ipsilanti Georgia (present day) near Redbone Crossroads, Georgia (nothing left but that crossroad locations) ca. 1699. I just think these two would best catch you up on the recent and new data we have on all these families and tribeal associations.

xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:51 AM

Wow..okay, good luck~


xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 3:58 AM

You should ask abc how much "Egyptian" he returned. I cannot and will not ignore ANY of the ethnic/cultural influences on my familial lines, and pretty darn sure you just cant hear anything from a female who has been in active research of these familial lines for a way long time (hate to even say). You are being defensive for no reason. I will archive our convo and allow the scholars to decide if I handled you inappropriate..I'm thinking you just dont want to hear the truth and truly do not understand DNA or their paths of inheritence (ydna, mtdna and autosomal). I'm sorry your missing a fantastic truth~


I sent Yesterday at 4:12 AM

abc IS FROM 123! __ My ancestors lived in the Tn/Va border! He claims Cheraw. My ancestors were Saponi! They were often allied, and married into one another. But they were not ALWAYS allies! his killed Tuscarora during the Tuscarora War -- mine were neutral! His helped destroy the Tuscarora. Mine didn't! We have a similar history in many ways -- but we were DIFFERENT. I wish people would STOP lumping us in together with other similar groups -- we are both Siouan, the Cheraw and Saponi, both Catawba (known as Ysa/Yesah in Virginia and Esaw /Iswa in SC until after the Tuscarora/Yamassee wars, when were were all practically exterminated -- afterwards were became collectively referred to as "Catawba since they were the largest surviving band) -- but we are also DIFFERENT!

xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 4:22 AM

Up..thats us too, our people migrated as a "tribe" together for over 400 years, Jamestown to present day. So, this is why I ask for gedmatch numbers to establish relatedness. I am familiar enough with my lines and others, if we had any hits I might be able to figure it out. Do you have a pedigree at ancestry or anywhere I could review. Mine is well published in my genetic genealogy handbook, The Journey at Amazon and it can also be found at our MEHRA group in the files section.

xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 4:27 AM

As far as North 123 Indians they are all related to us (Melungeons & Redbones). www.redbonenation.com http://redbonenation.com/

XMA Header Image

Redbone Nation - Redbone Heritage

redbonenation.com


I sent Yesterday at 4:41 AM

If you cared about finding native ancestry, why would you research the Hawkins line -- it will take you to England? Or mama's Germanic heritage -- xyz mama's maiden name was Plaster and came from the part of Germany from near the German/French/Swiss border. Grandma's maiden name was Jonas -- which we were told was "Black Dutch" -- which I was told meant a dark complected German -- it might mean Jewish or Greek either. But those ancestors were NOT from the side I claim my Melungeon ancestry. I descend from William Wayland. His brother Nevil Wayland Jr, WROTE the earlier parts of the minutes of Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church. But by 1813 it was Mr. Brickey, a second generation French Huguenot, who wrote those minutes "them melungins" in that document. There were thousands of French Huguenots in the Carolinas and Virginia. You might find some middle eastern information as those Jonas' might show up -- but they had nothing to do with my Melungeon ancestry -- on my mtDNA test. However I was told the mtDNA goes back to -- surprise surprise -- Germany and Scandinavia. Only the autosomal DNA sipplies iformation about ALL 32 o my g-g-g-grandparents that's the flaw in the Melungeon DNA test they took about 10 or 20 years ago. I even wrote a blog entry about that flaw.

Tue 5:09 AM

xyz

xyz sent Yesterday at 5:09 AM

Paleeze, stop insulting my intelligence. I do respect ALL ethnic influences among our families, including the white, African, East Asian (Catawba documented in the South Carolina Indian Traders which you can get a free copy at our group files section). We have Welsh, Irish, Cajun, Hispanic (Spaniard x NA) Canary Oslanders and on and on, Your concentration of only NA is not applicable here perhaps all be it cultural. I'm not going to defend my research here to you suffice to say we Redbones have worked hard to acknowledge ALL of various withinc and cultural influences, Including, Black Dutch as demonstrated in the book Redbones of Louisiana by Don Marler and myself. Again, we do not use autosomal admixture (there is a difference between autosomal admixture "estimates" and an autosomal DNA biological test. Prhaps, as suggested above you should educate yourself a little on current research and DNA before you go abusing others. And, that is how I feel, abused by your constant barrage of misunderstandings. The reason I looked into the HAWKINS male lines is because my great uncle married into the La. Redbone HAWKINS lineages in San Saba Texas..yeah, surprise, surprise many HAWKINS followed and were related to us among the HAWKINS & DOYLE merchantile family on the Natchez Trace. If you have studied as much as we have you would have already known that. Get off the race batting stuff, please that is not what this is about (truth). I agree the Melungeon DNA testing 20 plus years ago was flawed but there has been huge strides in the science of DNA since that time...I AM a genetic genealogist only because I went back to college to understand further our people. Please stop treating me like an enemy and update your knowledge base to current studies and understandings.

You Blocked Messages and Calls From xyz

– when xyz told me not to insult xyz’s intelligence – that was the last straw. I wouldn’t talk with xyz anymore.


Response

I must admit my last few comments were spoken in anger.

xyz kept responding faster that could state my thoughts. xyz just kept adding more material.

xyz -- We believe Melungeon was an Arabic word meaning "cursed or outcast". Simply because most of us return with high ME origin haplos:-)

Okay “xyz believes” – a “belief” and a “fact” are two different things. Where is xyz’s PROOF or even EVIDENCE that “Melungeon” is an Arabic word? I stated my PROOF that it is a FRENCH word. I have PROOF there were French Huguenots living with or visiting the Saponi and Catawba. She produced ZERO proof of Arabic families or language being spoken -- there WERE French families and the French language WAS SPOKEN in the area.

Xyz says the “Redbones” used the term “Melungeon” before 1813. I asked xyz for the reference. xyz doesn’t provide it.

Xyz asked me to read about the Red Bones. Why, I wonder, since I am researching the Saponi in Va , NC, & East Tn, and their migration routes? xyz tells me to look at the DNA of mixed blood from Florida, a mixed-Cheraw – what does that tell me about the Saponi in Virginia. History is important – but xyz is the one needing to learn the facts about the Saponi. Of course they are made up of descendants of many groups – so are the ENGLISH! Celtic/Roman/Anglo-Saxon/Jutes/Normans (French), and today, add immigrants from Indian/Africa/and Middle Eastern former colonies, as well as Jewish.

Anyway, it was very frustrating. I wish I’d been able to read xyz’s early statements before I started this – If I’d read that bit about xyz being a disciple of Brent Kennedy, I would have known better . . . and never let it get this far.

Concepts yet to be covered

Magoffin County Gypsies?? Occam’s Razor ?? autosomal DNA from India?? The math is IMPOSSIBLE.

The Math

When talking about my parents, my DNA should be half from my father and half from my mother. I have 4 grandparents, so I should receive about 1/4th of my DNA from each of the. Having 8 great grandparents, I should receive about 1/8th of my DNA from each of them, meaning about 12.5% per great-grandparent. So if your tests comeback saying you are 12.5% something, that means one of your great grandparents was FULL BLOOD that one thing? If your results comeback 12.5% Gypsy, they you will see that Gypsy in in your great grandparents. They will have a Gypsy surname that you will recognize as Gypsy. That surname won’t be Collins or Bunch or Hathcock or Minor! It is mathematically IMPOSSIBLE to have so much Gypsy DNA of unknown origin.

Weird comments

Xyz says, “We have FB Cherokee exact mtdna matches (living) between the Melungeons/Redbones/Lumbee/MOWA to ancient Persian Khalder Gypsy (India).”

I have no idea who or what xyz is talking about. What is a “facebook Cherokee”? Does that mean “fake Cherokee”?


Time for a google search. I did google search for Khalder, Gypsy, and Persia. That search provided NO matches that contained all three words. Same results when I searched for Khalder, Gypsy, and India – no matches when I searched all three words.

Xyz sayd, “The YDNA is from the BLAIR and Perkins matched ydna, they are certainly white origins but whole are also among the modern day Caramel Indians who settled in Michigan, again the migration path of the Grasshoppper's. They had a particular migration path in the form of a triangle shape which is why they are called Grasshopper's they claim Cherokee Gypsy.”


Again – nonsense!

I had mentioned the “Carmel Indians of Ohio” and xyz had no idea who or what I was talking about. They are a group of mixed race Indians who moved from Ft Christanna, along the NC/Va border moving west until they got to the Tn/Va border. One group moved up to Magoffin County, Ky and eventually to Highland County, Ohio. Xyz speaks of people xyz calls “Caramel Indians”. Xyz says they moved to Michigan ‘in the past of ‘grasshoppers’ xyz said they claim to be “Cherokee Gypsies”. The Carmel Indians I know of ALL CLAIM to be Saponi, and their surnames bear that out! Here’s an accurate presentation of these people.http://www.historical-melungeons.com/carmel.html. Xyz says these people are “Cherokee Gypsies”. I did find this -- https://www.facebook.com/CherokeeGypsies/?ref=page_internal – but it made no mention of a group in Michigan called “Grasshoppers”. Again – nonsense. Xyz uses words that mean nothing.


Occam’s Razor


It states:


1. Occam’s razor: a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities.

2. Occam's razor, Ockham's razor, Ocham's razor, or the principle of parsimony or law of parsimony is the problem-solving principle that "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity", sometimes inaccurately paraphrased as "the simplest explanation is usually the best one."

Oc·​cam's razor | \ ˈä-kəmz- \

variants: or less commonly Ockham's razor, noun

Definition of Occam's razor

: a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities

Also on the Miriam Webster website is the following, concerning the origins of this concept; William of Occam (also spelled "Ockham") didn't invent the rule associated with his name. Others had espoused the "keep it simple" concept before that 14th-century philosopher and theologian embraced it, but no one wielded the principle (also known as the law of parsimony) as relentlessly as he did. He used it to counter what he considered the fuzzy logic of his theological contemporaries, and his applications of it inspired 19th-century Scottish philosopher Sir William Hamilton to link Occam with the idea of cutting away extraneous material, giving us the modern name for the principle.

The simplest explanation for the origin of the Melungeons is that we descend from Native Americans, Caucasians, and African American ancestors. All the ways of the Melungeons are explained in these three lineages. To add a forth or fifth MAJOR lineage is that can’t be proven is unthinkable.

Do The Math!

You want us to think . . .

Assume an autosomal DNA test says about 12% of our DNA comes from south or west Asia. So you want us to believe we are Gypsy and this 12% is your proof. But consider the math. One-eighth is 12.5%. That means you have a great grandparent, who is Gypsy. Or you might have 2 g-g-grandparents who are full-blood gypsy. Perhaps you had 4 g-g-g-grandparents who were gypsy . . . or 8 g-g-g-g-grandparents who were Gypsy. See where this leads? The further back in time you go, the more and more Gypsy ancestors you need to have to accompany this train of thought. The math is impossible which means the DNA is wrong. It has been decided by a faulty algorithm . . . Clearly mixed-race persons create a problem for genetic researchers that is yet to be resolved. In India, you have people who look Asian in the Northeast, more Caucasian looking people in the northwest, and there is a population of persons who in appearance, look more African in the South. However the same Asian, African, and Caucasian mixture occurs amongst the Melungeon communities of America.

And how is it all these Gypsy and Portuguese ancestors have English sounding surnames? Did the Spanish and Portuguese enslave Spanish or Portuguese? NO! African slaves found in the Carolinas and Virginia WOULD and DID have English surnames. But there is no reason for Spaniards and Portuguese to have English surnames. I have records of most of my ancestors. ZERO of them might have been Gypsy’s. There was a colony known as the Germanna Colony in Virginia. Huguenot French resettled Monacan Town. Why wouldn’t there be a known location of a Portuguese settlement? There were known settlements of the Spanish in Florida and Texas and even Louisiana for a short time.

If there were mixed Portuguese and Gypsy, families – fine. But they have nothing to do with some families who became known as “Melungeon families.”


One Theory

One the above web sit is says; “Up to date "popular" theory supports the fact that the Melungeons were descendants of Portuguese and Spanish settlers. The English word 'Melungeon' has both Arabic and Turkish roots meaning "cursed soul". In the Portuguese language the term "Melungo" means shipmate. In the Turkish language Melungeons are called Melun-can, "Melun" being "a borrowed word from Arabic meaning one that carries bad luck and ill omen." The term "Can, " which is Turkish, means soul. Melucan means a person whose soul is a born loser. This expression was a common phrase among 16th century Ottoman Turks, Arabs, and Muslim converts to Christianity in Spain and Portugal. It is still empathized by modern Turks as an offensive term by a Muslim who feels deserted by God.

This theory totally ignores evidence right in front of them! There were thousands of French Huguenots who settled in the Carolinas and Virginia. The word “Melungin” is first recorded as having been used at Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church in the records of the Minutes of that church on September 26, 1813. It was written by William Brickey, a descendant of a family of French Huguenots . . .

Going back to; John "John" Jean Brickey (Bricquet)

Birthdate: December 20, 1640

Birthplace: Plumaugat, Côtes-d'Armor, Bretagne, France

Death: October 29, 1718 (77)

Fort Blackmore, Scott County, VA, United States

Vance’s note:I am pretty sure “Fort Blackmore” didn’t exist in 1718. Perhaps he was buried near where the future fort would soon be erected.

It is unmistakable – everywhere you see the word “Melungeons” used – you’ll find Frenchmen and women. The rest of that – about Turks and Arabs -- is meaningless.


Go to the link above.

Verb conjugation of mélanger

Présent

je mélange

tu mélanges

il mélange

nous mélangeons -- present tense, first person plural, and it means "we mix".

vous mélangez

ils mélangent

First person, plural, present tense, of the French verb, mélanger, meaning “to mix” is “nous mélangeons”; and it means “we mix”. The pronoun “nous” is often understood and you can just say “mélangeons”. It did not originate as a derogatory term -- it was just a Frenchman’s way of talking about mixed-race people in the early 19th century, and probably before that time as well. Today the French people of Canada use the term “metis” to speak of mixed race people. But there was an earlier time when “mélangeons” was also used. However in East Tennessee it became a derogatory term. We forgot the original meaning of the term, and Will Allen Drumgoole confused everyone by making up her stories about the Melungeons. More recent authors have added to this nonsense, and unfortunately, continue to do so.


More notes: She said "Mary Musgrove was an empress of the Creek Nation." No she wasn't!! South Carolina settlers christened a man they thought was her father as "Emperor". In reality he was a chief of Coweta. It is believed she was half Caucasian, half Creek. xyz states Mary's descendants also go back to some Gypsy' family. In truth, she had three sons who died before they reached 20 years of age. Mary Musgrove - Wikipedia

More Notes: She says "we have a direct match to Osceola, Seminole resistance leader." That's not possible! Females don't the carry Y-chromosome! Is she referring to Mary Musgrove? But she then rushes on to her next topic without providing a source nor giving me time to review the validity and reliability of it. I have run into researchers all my life who just expect their word to be taken at face value.

Well, here at the end I just got tired of replacing "her" or "she" with "xyz". Well, I still haven't mentioned her name.

Had she just taken the time to cite her sources, perhaps I wouldn't have critiqued her work so poorly. But she didn't give me a choice or a chance to do so.


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