Help with Genealogy

Years ago I was in contact with Jerri Chasteen, former Registrar of the Cherokee Nation. We were on good terms. Then she passed away and it wasn't until several years later I again contacted a Cherokee genealogist. I now think we have both Cherokee and Catawban roots, based on research. Here is a partial record of what I was told by that genealogist about our "Brown" ancestors. It is part of a running conversation on "messenger" found on facebook.

05/02/2015 3:42pm

Vance

howdy [Cherokee Genealogist], Well if you want to help me with genealogy, I can give you some material I suppose. Thanks. I can start with dad was A. O. Hawkins, 1915, b. farm near Manitou, Tillman Co., Ok-1992 d. Altus, Jackson County, Ok. His mother was Loney Richey, b. Lewiston, Denton Co., Tx 1883 per delayed birth certificate, m. Noah Hawkins 1904 Loco, Pickens District, Chickasaw Nation,. d. near Manitou, Ok 1963) Her parents were Jeffrey Richey ( b. Ark, 1851d. 1926 Tillman Co., Ok) and Josephine Brown (b. Ark 1854, m. to Jeff 1872. d, Tillman Co., Ok 1932. Per great uncle in Indian/Pioneer Papers, after they married they moved to IT near Fort Smith. Great Uncle said he didn't know if they lived in Sequoyah or Leflore Co, as he didn't know which side of the river they lived on. By 1880 they lived in Denton Co., Tx. By late 1880s moved to Chickasaw Nation. Photos are dad, dad (ww2 photo -- don't know why I saved them together) & grandma, country school, and 2 of grandma's brothers (Hoten and Otho Richey) enlarged from that school photo

[Cherokee Genealogist]

what did the A.O stand for

Vance

Lona Richey's mother was Josephine Brown. Josey's parnts were David Brown and Harriet Guess/Gist. Have no photo of David, b. Al abt 1822 d. Ark May 1865. A tin-type of Harriet exists, though. SOme census records say b. Tn and some say Ala. She was b. abt 1817 or 8 and died 1886 Denton Co., Tx. They married 1841, Shelby Co., Tn (Memphis). Also showing tin-type of Harriet with her granddaughter my great aunt Etta, bud we called her Ettie. That baby was an elderly woman when I knew her in the early 60s. I think she died in the late 60s. It was her family that preserved that old tin-type. Dad pased in 1992, adn one by one so did all his brothers. I realized only a siseter survived so I wrote her a letter and her reply is also enclosed. She's gone now too.

[Cherokee Genealogist]

is this him?

[Cherokee Genealogist]

Otho C Hawkins

Birth abt 1911 in Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA

Death

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2 Sources

Birth

1911

abt

Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA

1 Source

Residence

1920

16 Jan

Age: 9

Holton, Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA

1 Source

Residence

1930

11 Apr

Age: 19

Holton, Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA

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Parents

Noah Allen Hawkins

1875 –

Lona Clementine Richey

1883 – 1963

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Source Information

Vance

YES! That's my family. They were always listed as White on census records. OC was dad's brother, Otho Cecil. AO stands for Alpha Omega Hawkins, called "Al" and "Alpha" but he was said to have also been named after great uncles on both sides (the Richey and the Brown) named "Alfred". There was an Alfred Richey and an Alfred Brown.

[Cherokee Genealogist]

ok

Vance

I don't want to make claims and all -- those are family stories only -- and we are not documented as Indian -- AT ALL! I remember them saying they thought about signing up for Dawes, but got mad or upset or something, and they never signed up. David Brown's parents were John Brown and Mary (Polly) Black and can be found living on the Tennessee River near what is Decatur, Alabama, today.

Vance

I hope I haven't said anything wrong. I don't make any claims -- just these are family stories and might be wrong.

[Cherokee Genealogist]

oh no honey sorry i had to go help my husband for a minute he is a cancer survivor but it limited on what he can do anymore....dont tell him i said that

[Cherokee Genealogist]

have you seen this

[Cherokee Genealogist]

John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1

Record Image Index-only record

Report issue

Name: John Brown, (Cherokee)

Nature of Claim: Compensation for improvement on lands relinquished

Congress: 23

Session: 1

Manner Brought: Petition

Journal Page: 50

Referred to Committee: Indian Affairs

Vance

No, I haven't seen that. Does it have something to do with the Reservation rolls? One of my biggest problems seems to be there were a lot of "John Browns". Which is which? Sorry to hear about your husband.

[Cherokee Genealogist]

this is the John brown the records were connected to ........

John Brown

Birth 1795 in Unknown

Death 1855 in Walker County, Alabama, USA

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Birth

1795

Unknown

1 Source

Marriage to Mary Polly Black

1820

23 Dec

Age: 25

Lawrence County, Alabama, USA

Alabama Marriage Collection, 1800-1969 - Its repeated 3 Times for each.

2 Sources

Residence

1840

Age: 45

Lawrence, Alabama, United States

Death

1855

Age: 60

Walker County, Alabama, USA

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Parents

No Father

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Spouse & Children

Mary Polly Black

1801 – 1885

David B. Brown

1822 – 1865

Malinda Amanda Brown

1828 – 1880

Nehemiah Brown

1829 –

Elizabeth A. Brown

1834 – 1922

Alfred L. Brown

1837 –

Nancy Y. Brown

1840 –

Martha L. Brown

1843 –

Orleny Brown

1845 – 1889

Cynthia Brown

1846 –

Thelma

John Brown in the U.S. General Land Office Records, 1796-1907

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Name: John Brown

Issue Date: 16 Oct 1835

Acres: 80.01

Meridian: Huntsville

State: Alabama

County: Winston

Township: 11-S

Range: 7-W

Section: 25

Accession Number: AL1300__.148

Metes and Bounds: No

Land Office: Huntsville

Canceled: No

US Reservations: No

Mineral Reservations: No

Authority: April 24, 1820: Sale-Cash Entry (3 Stat. 566)

Document Number: 6954

Thelma

John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1

Record Image Index-only record

Report issue

Name: John Brown, (Cherokee)

Nature of Claim: Compensation for improvement on lands relinquished

Congress: 21

Session: 1

Manner Brought: Petition

Journal Page: 318

Referred to Committee: Indian A

Thelma

John Brown Jr in the U.S., War of 1812 Service Records, 1812-1815

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Name: John Brown Jr

Company: COL. MORGAN, JR.'S, REG'T CHEROKEE INDIANS.

Rank - Induction: PRIVATE

Rank - Discharge: PRIVATE

Roll Box: 27

Thelma

this is on David brown

Thelma

Prisoner Of War

David was listed on a roll of prisoners from Corinth, Mississippi at Provost Marshal's Office October 14, 1862. He was at the battle of Shiloh, Pittsburg Landing Tennessee; the Battle of Iuka, Mississippi on 19 September 1862, the battle of Corinth on the 3rd & 4th; Hatchie on the 5th and 6th of October.

Vance

THAT IS MY JOHN BROWN!! How did you do that? My David was at the Battle of Corinth, but I didn't know he was also at Shilo. I thought he might have been because Corinth was fought shortly after. Where/how did you find these things! That Brown family moved to Arkansas and those same names are found in later Arkansas census records. Let me see andmake sure I have this right. THOSE Browns are associated with a Cherokee named John Brown? You did that so easily! I've looked for 20 plus years!!

Thelma

Some times you have to search by last name with the dates to many times people use nick names or the names get confused down the line i searched for my grand mother as Jackie Benge for 20 years just to fall over her real name Sylvia one day

Fold3 has a lot of info but it is a paid site

i also use family search

Vance

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I'VE GOT TO GET A COPY OF THAT!! I can't believe it! Sorry for the upper case. I'll definitely pay you something for a copy of that material on John Brown and his family, especially where it mentions his family. That information is priceless, to me, anyhow. You can name your price.

Thelma

no

i charge nothing

send me your e-mail address and i will put it in an e-mail

Vance

vhawkins1952@msn.com. Then Thelma, I am in your debt. Again thank you.

Thelma

it will be coming from lckysgrll@gmail.com

Vance

Thanks -- I had really given up on ever discovering anything else. I'll be looking for it.

Thelma

ok i sent this conversation you should be able to print it out

Vance

I have it. Thanks. I need to get a copy of the original. I'll be taking off work for a week next month. I have a project to work on, now.

Thelma

lol

i hope it is yours family that would be so exciting

Vance

I know they will be!

Thelma

i also will keep snopping a little

do you have access to the cherokee rolls

Vance

Thanks. I have access to some of them. I got frustrated because I had no way of knowing which John Brown was which. There are several of them! But you mentioned his children's names, and they are the same names we have! It will still be difficult to know which of the Brown's on the rolls are our relatives, and which aren't.

Thelma

there are 3 john Brows on the 1817 reservation rolls in arkansas

but it will take some researching by you to identify them or rule them out

i am going to share with you this site

Vance

Yeah, and I think mine went to Arkansas, and also returned to Alabama. I don't know how to rule one out or where to go, beyond the rolls.

Thelma

http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=387&Itemid=582

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This attachment may have been removed or the person who shared it may not have permission to share it with you.

you check family names and compare birth dates to many see a name on the rolls and think that is there family with out really researching it

but john and polly are on the 1817 resevation roll look for your self

List of Reservation

Res ID Last First

60 Brown Alexander

61 Brown James

62 Brown John

63 Brown John Jr.

64 Brown John Sr.

65 Brown Polly

66 Brown William

Vance

So I guess John Jr would be mine, then?

Thelma

they may all be yours they could all be family

but that polly and that John are cherokee

and you have the land agreement in our conversation

Vance

And that s where they lived. They were first discovered in Northern Lawrence County, Alabama in records, but later records put them further south in Winston and or Walker Counties. And the children that are mentioned in Alabama in 1850 are the same children in Arkansas census records in 1860, and they are the same children in the records that you have shown me as belonging to this Cherokee Brown family. I have usually only seen the father's name with no idea how to discover the names of the children or sometimes the wife. This changes things..

Thelma

awesome

I am happy i could walk a little on your journey my dear

Vance

Well so am I Thelma. Shocked and awed! I am in your debt.

Thelma

all you owe me is a good thought now and then lol

Vance

you got it!

Thelma

i am here almost every day so if you have any questions feel free do send me a message

Vance

will do.

Thelma

now you can tell Chris your family is on the 1817 reservation rolls lol

Vance

I suspected that roll, and also suspected that is why we weren't on later rolls. It is my understanding the people on the reservation rolls agreed to assimilate and left the Cherokee Nation.

well thanks again, will talk later

Thelma

The 1817 Cherokee Reservation Roll Results

A listing of those applying for a 640 acre tract in the East in lieu of removing to Arkansas. This was only good during their lifetime and then the property reverted back to the state.

This is only an index of applicants, in most instances the people listed here did not receive the reservation they requested. We will be posting the remaining documents surrounding the Reservation Roll including a list of actual recipients in the near future.

Thelma

yes talk to you any time

05/25/2015 9:52am

Vance

Thelma -- howdy! Or Osiyo! Thanks again for all your help. I wrote congressional sources and received some of the paperwork on the Brown's., John and James. They lost land in Hamilton Co., Tn when the land was ceded, it says. It looks like John's lands went to David Fields, a reservee. But I still can't tie THIS John Brown to my family, that is, the John Brown with the wife named Mary (Polly) Black. I descend from their eldest son David. How did you connect MY John Brown with the John Brown who is mentioned in congressional records? Sorry, but when I work I don't have a lot of time. I'll be off work all week so I can look into things. thanks, Vance

Thelma

Vance I just have you the documents that were with that persons family tree

Vance

Well, thank you. You gave me hope that there does exist, somewhere, that link . . . appreciate the help. Vance

Thelma

Vance i always go with my gut instinct I believe with all my heart you have a connection , maybe tomorrow if i have a little down time i will do some more searching for you, stay strong my friend, much love to you

but to day i am off to the mountain to find some knarly mud holes to play in lol

Vance

Mud holes? Sounds like fun. Yall must be getting the same rain we've been getting. I live in Southwestern Oklahoma -- Altus. We've had about 5 years of drought, Lake Lugert-Altus, where we get our water, was down to 10% capacity two months ago. Last I heard it was over 50% now and water is still flowing into it from the north (up around Elk City or Sayre or Shamrock, Tx) -- water from those regions flows into it. But Eastern Oklahoma ALWAYS gets more rain than we do, so yall are probably swamped! Well, have fun playin in the mud with the cat fishes, best wishes, Vance

05/25/2015 6:30pm

09/06/2017 2:42pm

Vance

Thelma, somehow I lost connection with you. would you mind if I asked you some more questions?

09/06/2017 11:12pm

Vance

Here is the Mary/Polly (Black) Brown you found "somewhere". The first is in Walker Co, AL 1950 and the 2nd in Lawrence Co, Ark 1860. My g-g-grandpa David Brown was in Lawrence Co, Arkansas too. This is the same family you found and told me was the John Brown Jr in the Reservation rolls.

Vance

I found this group of people who talked about the "Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama" and I had just joined them after last talking to you. They started calling me "wannabe, fake, phoney", and so on. I asked why what they had against this Alabama group but It made no sense to me. I believe you are friends with this group. I went to post on a genealogical DNA group and one member of this group shouted out -- Vance is a fake Indian, a wannabe, and he's crazy. . . and went on and on . . .I am at a loss. Why are these folks lying about me? Just very confused.

09/07/2017 5:01am

Thelma

I am not sure Vance what group was it

09/07/2017 8:36am

Vance

When I contacted them I was just hoping to fins out what the Cherokee Nation had against state recognized groups, and I got more than I bargained for. I will continue to believe more Cherokee people are like you than them. Thank you for helping me find my Brown's. Best wishes.

the struggle is a tough one ...when the nations split ...meaning when some stayed behind and chose not to go on the trail of tears they gave up the right to call themselves Cherokee and became just a citizen of the united states ...some later in 1924 fought for there right to call them self Cherokee there for the Baker roll was compiled and became the north Carolina band....because the others gave up the native american citizenship they are not nor ever will be recognized as Cherokee , and the most they can be called descendants but still have no rights

no it is not right, but it is Cherokee politics

now state tribes do not require proof of lineage and pretty much let anyone who believes in there heart they are native to join....mostly for a monthly or yearly fee and the five civilized tribes view them as culture thieves , the states dont mind if they claim Native because it generates state grants and revenue.....there is money in having a token Indian tribe in your state.

That group I joined -- called Echota Trbe of Alabama -- do charge $45 yearly. I wish those other people I asked the same question to had been more patient, and given me more time to think about it I didn't want to offend anyone. I understand they left the Cherokee Nation when they started living in Lawrence Co., Alabama, and were living as US citizens rather than Cherokee citizens. I'm 64 -- will be 65 in December, and I am not quite as healthy as I was a few years ago. I just wanted a piece of paper I could hold up and say "I'm also Cherokee" or of partial Cherokee amcestry, too." I waned to do that wile I am still alive. That's why I joined that group. There will come a time when my $45 dollar fee will come due again. There is a good chance I won't pay it. They just didn't give me enough time to think it through before they jumped all over me, and I got defensive.

they are considered a fake tribe

Vance

My last ancestor left Alabama by before 1860 even. We have been in Oklahoma since 1872 mostly. Well thank you. for the information. I had thought since they are recognized by a state they were better than some of those other groups. We will never be eligible for any thing and like I said, there is a very good chance I won't pay them that $45 dollar fee again. Once I quit paying, my membership will cease. Again, thanks for talking to me in a friendly manner and not accusing me of anything. I had just joined them after I first came in contact with you a couple of years ago and wasn't aware there was a problem with them at that time.

Thelma

i am always here my dear if you need me

Vance

Awww . . . you are very kind . . . thanks.

08/25/18

5:33am

Just wanted to let you know I never paid my dues (which were due -- I forget -- 6 or 9 months ago. So I haven't been a member of Echota Cherokee for about that long. It was after you contacted me saying my Polly and John Brown are on the reservation rolls, and that other information, that I joined that group. Then I went "here" -- https://www.facebook.com/pages/Echota-Cherokee-Tribe-of-Alabama/117357264992657 -- to ask them what they had against the Echota tribe of Alabama -- my intention was to write a blog entry showing both sides of the issue -- I wanted their side -- before I realized what was going on they called me a fake and said my name was going up on a "wall of shame -- they called me disgusting names. Lianna Constantino was the worst -- she cornered a group of genedalogists and even told them -- "I hope you find he is a fake because he is a member of that fake group Echota Cherokee." Well back then I had been a member for a year and I had never visited them. My ancestors have been in Oklahoma -- first ancestors I can document came here in 1832 and the last (on dad's side) came here in 1872. I was going to tell them about all this but when they started lying about my ancestors I shut up like a clam and told them nothing more. At one point they showed me a family of Richeys we are related to from Arkansas and said "look at them -- there white!" But the only Richey's we are related to that are mixed with Cherokee is my great grandparents -- Jeff Richey and Josephine Brown. Leanna asked me to visit them in North Carolina as though she thought Iived in Alabama -- but I am an Oklahoman and always have been. I live closer to Lawton. I'm 65 years old. I'll make one more long trip in my live, next year for the 75th annivdersary of DDay as dad's brother , Uncle Eual Lee Hawkins, is buried in Normandy American cemetery. But that's all. If she wants to meet me she can come to Lawton. I think you know her. I still have a couple of friends on facebook who are Echota members. I'll also keep my distance from here on from Ms Smith, Artist. I quit associating with them because of you, and not those bullies who insulted me at the website below. Sorry for the long post.

1

8:44am; 08/25/18

Thelma

I am so sorry you were treated badly I have seen how the cherokee attack you are not a member of the 3 recognized tribes. ..I have never felt the need ..I tell them how the cherokee feel and leave it at that

If*

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